I was going to do this day by day, but the realities of GA have hit. I'm not as young as I was, and by midnight on the 15th, I was totally beat. Then I wake up at 6am today, the 16th.
Hopefully I'll catch up on this to add my thoughts. One thing I will say, commissioners need to keep their wits about them. We were never notified about a vote on a standing rule change for this GA. It was brought up for a vote, half the commissioners were voting for it even though we had not gotten an electronic copy of the motion other than that which was displayed on the overhead screens for about 30 seconds or so.
By the time I awoke to what was going on, the vote was over, and all I could do was raise a Point of Order. The answer was not to my liking, so I asked for a Division of the House, which will force a poll of the commissioners. That said, research afterwards shows that this change is a debatable motion, that should have had someone speaking to it and against it. I have to say, the way this was brought up smells of smokey rooms, good ole boys, and back-room politics.
It may be too late to do anything about it unless I can find someone who voted for it, to request a Motion to Reconsider. I'll add more about this rule change later, along with the rest of the day in a few hours, I hope.
.... and so it goes!
Monday, June 16, 2014
Day 1 at GA
Friday - Jun 13th
After a 5 1/2 hour trip from Cannoli, PA, we arrived at Detroit. The first issue was trying to figure out where you pull in to unload your car at the hotel. Once that was discovered, we had to wait until 3PM as that was the scheduled check-in time. OK, we got to the room, got the size bed we wanted, but then discovered if I wanted a tub or a larger shower, I should have asked for that too.
Oh yeah, one more thing. To those who are interior designers/decorators ... it is NOT a good idea to put a clear glass window in the door to the bathroom. I don't care if the glass is wavy or is extruded to look like glass piping, you can still see through it. I have a thing about privacy when I'm, um, on the throne. That said, the room was "OK", could have had more drawer space, and a fridge.
Arrived at COBO Hall amidst the hustle and bustle of hundreds of Presbyterians. There are people of all ages here, however most of those I've seen are a bit older. One lady I met in the elevator at the hotel was overwhelmed with it all, and she hadn't even gone over to the COBO center to register yet, it was her first GA. It appeared that it may have been her first trip anywhere without family.
Got checked in at the registration table, and went to visit some friends. Stopped by the Layman booth, along with the PFR, Presbyterians Pro-Life and One-by-One booths. Saw people I know in person, and finally met in person some I know from online.
The interesting part is that across from these booths, are the CovNet, Voice of Justice, and other liberal groups. Nice juxtaposition! The good news is that there are people who, while disagreeing, are otherwise great friends on both sides of that aisle.
Yet I have heard from one person manning the PPL booth that not all reactions to their being there was sweetness and light.
The first plenary meeting Saturday evening was devoted to orientation, and testing of the ethernet and WiFi internet connections. Sad to say, it did not go well. PC-Biz (the online repository of data for the commissioners) was down for a while, and both the wireless and wired networks were overwhelmed. I could say more about this, but someone who is here as an observer tells it much better here. As you can see on that page, technical issues abounded. They should have called in Cisco Systems at the beginning.
After dinner, we came back to see about the next order of business, electing a moderator. Again, I refer back to that previous link for more specifics. As a geek, all I can do is shake my head. Having been to conferences in my previous job position of computer programmer, I know that 1,000 people trying to use wire/wireless networks normally do not cause this type of problem. Then again, these are geek conferences, and they know who to use to setup their infrastructure. It could all boil down to the COBO Center not having the trunk capacity to handle this many. Yet, that answer doesn't explain what happened in 2012 at Pittsburgh. That said, the OGA staff had to go to plan B, the voting 'clicker'. There were a few tests, and not everyone was satisfied that the votes were reliably taken. It was determined to move on.
The three moderator candidates were brought up and asked questions by many commissioners for about 45 minutes. FWIW ... this year there wasn't a conservative candidate, I'm guessing that anyone who was willing to serve, just didn't feel that they'd have a chance. Two of the candidates did not impress me at all, both partisan on the left. One candidate was, at one time, on the board of one of the left's coalitions, the other is the pastor at a More Light church.
Heath Rada, who won the election came across as someone who respects the opinions of those on the conservative side. He may not agree, but he knows that conservatives are a needed voice at the table. What was more interesting, was that the Young Advisory Delegates (YADs) voted 3/5s in favor of Mr. Rada. I heard later that a friend asked one of the YADs about that, and that the YAD said that there seemed to be a consensus that having someone who is not so partisan was needed in that office.
Oh, forgot to mention. The aforementioned vote had to be done on paper ballots. Yep, even the clickers were not working as advertised. The YADs had to hold up their cards to reflect their advice, and the commissioners had to write down the name of their choice on paper. OY !!!
They have said it should be working by Wednesday !!
.... and so it goes!
After a 5 1/2 hour trip from Cannoli, PA, we arrived at Detroit. The first issue was trying to figure out where you pull in to unload your car at the hotel. Once that was discovered, we had to wait until 3PM as that was the scheduled check-in time. OK, we got to the room, got the size bed we wanted, but then discovered if I wanted a tub or a larger shower, I should have asked for that too.
Oh yeah, one more thing. To those who are interior designers/decorators ... it is NOT a good idea to put a clear glass window in the door to the bathroom. I don't care if the glass is wavy or is extruded to look like glass piping, you can still see through it. I have a thing about privacy when I'm, um, on the throne. That said, the room was "OK", could have had more drawer space, and a fridge.
Arrived at COBO Hall amidst the hustle and bustle of hundreds of Presbyterians. There are people of all ages here, however most of those I've seen are a bit older. One lady I met in the elevator at the hotel was overwhelmed with it all, and she hadn't even gone over to the COBO center to register yet, it was her first GA. It appeared that it may have been her first trip anywhere without family.
Got checked in at the registration table, and went to visit some friends. Stopped by the Layman booth, along with the PFR, Presbyterians Pro-Life and One-by-One booths. Saw people I know in person, and finally met in person some I know from online.
The interesting part is that across from these booths, are the CovNet, Voice of Justice, and other liberal groups. Nice juxtaposition! The good news is that there are people who, while disagreeing, are otherwise great friends on both sides of that aisle.
Yet I have heard from one person manning the PPL booth that not all reactions to their being there was sweetness and light.
The first plenary meeting Saturday evening was devoted to orientation, and testing of the ethernet and WiFi internet connections. Sad to say, it did not go well. PC-Biz (the online repository of data for the commissioners) was down for a while, and both the wireless and wired networks were overwhelmed. I could say more about this, but someone who is here as an observer tells it much better here. As you can see on that page, technical issues abounded. They should have called in Cisco Systems at the beginning.
After dinner, we came back to see about the next order of business, electing a moderator. Again, I refer back to that previous link for more specifics. As a geek, all I can do is shake my head. Having been to conferences in my previous job position of computer programmer, I know that 1,000 people trying to use wire/wireless networks normally do not cause this type of problem. Then again, these are geek conferences, and they know who to use to setup their infrastructure. It could all boil down to the COBO Center not having the trunk capacity to handle this many. Yet, that answer doesn't explain what happened in 2012 at Pittsburgh. That said, the OGA staff had to go to plan B, the voting 'clicker'. There were a few tests, and not everyone was satisfied that the votes were reliably taken. It was determined to move on.
The three moderator candidates were brought up and asked questions by many commissioners for about 45 minutes. FWIW ... this year there wasn't a conservative candidate, I'm guessing that anyone who was willing to serve, just didn't feel that they'd have a chance. Two of the candidates did not impress me at all, both partisan on the left. One candidate was, at one time, on the board of one of the left's coalitions, the other is the pastor at a More Light church.
Heath Rada, who won the election came across as someone who respects the opinions of those on the conservative side. He may not agree, but he knows that conservatives are a needed voice at the table. What was more interesting, was that the Young Advisory Delegates (YADs) voted 3/5s in favor of Mr. Rada. I heard later that a friend asked one of the YADs about that, and that the YAD said that there seemed to be a consensus that having someone who is not so partisan was needed in that office.
Oh, forgot to mention. The aforementioned vote had to be done on paper ballots. Yep, even the clickers were not working as advertised. The YADs had to hold up their cards to reflect their advice, and the commissioners had to write down the name of their choice on paper. OY !!!
They have said it should be working by Wednesday !!
.... and so it goes!
Friday, April 4, 2014
2014 Overtures on marriage
This year the elephant in the room is so obvious that no one will be able to ignore it. One overture requests to change the Directory of Worship to remove presiding over a legal marriage but leaves the definition including man and woman:
OVT-011 On Amending W-4.9000 Concerning the Church’s Role in Legal Marriage and Services of Christian Covenant—From the Presbytery of Lehigh.
Another wants to change the same paragraph to replace man and woman and substitute two people:
OVT-021 On Amending W-4.9000, Marriage—From the Presbytery of the Cascades.
Then you have one that will just change the paragraph to add that Sessions and Presbyteries can change their own definition of marriage as a civil contract according to the local state law:
OVT-033 On Amending W-4.9001, Christian Marriage—From the Presbytery of Midwest Hanmi.
My thoughts on these overtures are that while I may not agree with some of the rationale, I will respect the thoughts of those who are bringing them forward for possible referral to the presbyteries for approval.
However, the overtures that are calling for an Authoritative Interpretation (AI) to impose a total revision of what the church considers as marriage are outside of the normal polity of any Presbyterian church. If its one thing that the Westminster Confession recognizes is that councils ERR. This is why overtures passed at GA are sent to the lower councils for debate and approval/rejection. An AI bypasses all these checks and balances, and imposes an interpretation of the Constitution on the denomination that would force many to rethink their affiliation, and result in the loss of many more members and congregations.
This one replaces the existing AIs on marriage, with one that says that a Teaching Elder can perform a marriage for any couple, not mentioning gender.
OVT-024 On Issuing an Authoritative Interpretation of W-4.9000 to Affirm Pastoral Discretion in Performing Marriage Ceremonies—From the Presbytery of Heartland.
This overture requests an AI that basically does the same as above, but in different language:
OVT-027 On Issuing an Authoritative Interpretation of W-4.9000 to Affirm Pastoral Discretion in Performing Marriage Ceremonies—From the Presbytery of East Iowa.
This one just wants to remove the entire 1991 AI that currently exists on SSM:OVT-036 On Rescinding the 1991 Authoritative Interpretation Concerning Teaching Elders Performing Marriages for Same-Gender Couples and Sessions Permitting Such Ceremonies in their Facilities—From the Presbytery of New Castle.
The problem with the rationale in this overture is that is says this:
The United States Supreme Court, in United States v. Windsor, ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, which allowed states where same-gender marriage was illegal to discriminate against such persons, was unconstitutional.
The reality is that the ruling held that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT must recognize the validity of SSM performed in states where such marriages are legal, it does not state that other states must recognize those marriages. The key part of the ruling is this:
Justice Kennedy noted that regulation of domestic relations is within states’ traditional authority, and that the sweeping nature of DOMA as applying to all federal laws had the purpose and necessary effect of treating differently a relationship that the state treated the same. This “demeans” the married couple that is treated differently. In concluding, the Court made it clear that “[t]his opinion and its holding are confined to those lawful marriages” under state law.
Will this legal nitpick hold any sway when this overture is debated in committee, I seriously doubt it.
I don't believe I missed any, but then again I may have. This year there will be another concerted effort at electioneering during the GA. Commissioners will be offered swag that will signal a preference towards a certain point of view, those who refuse such things may then be intimidated to go with the flow.
While I believe that any such indicators from any interest group should be banned from the hall, I don't see that happening as some may yell about free speech. I see it as the elimination of any external influences from the prayerful consideration of the work of the GA from any group left or right.
My previous thoughts on this issue are a matter of record, I see this is going to be an issue that keeps coming back again and again until those who are convinced that the traditional definition of marriage is correct either capitulate or have left the denomination.
.... and so it goes!
Update 05/16/2014:
PLEASE NOTE: these thoughts were written way before I knew where I would be serving at GA.
OVT-011 On Amending W-4.9000 Concerning the Church’s Role in Legal Marriage and Services of Christian Covenant—From the Presbytery of Lehigh.
Another wants to change the same paragraph to replace man and woman and substitute two people:
OVT-021 On Amending W-4.9000, Marriage—From the Presbytery of the Cascades.
Then you have one that will just change the paragraph to add that Sessions and Presbyteries can change their own definition of marriage as a civil contract according to the local state law:
OVT-033 On Amending W-4.9001, Christian Marriage—From the Presbytery of Midwest Hanmi.
My thoughts on these overtures are that while I may not agree with some of the rationale, I will respect the thoughts of those who are bringing them forward for possible referral to the presbyteries for approval.
However, the overtures that are calling for an Authoritative Interpretation (AI) to impose a total revision of what the church considers as marriage are outside of the normal polity of any Presbyterian church. If its one thing that the Westminster Confession recognizes is that councils ERR. This is why overtures passed at GA are sent to the lower councils for debate and approval/rejection. An AI bypasses all these checks and balances, and imposes an interpretation of the Constitution on the denomination that would force many to rethink their affiliation, and result in the loss of many more members and congregations.
This one replaces the existing AIs on marriage, with one that says that a Teaching Elder can perform a marriage for any couple, not mentioning gender.
OVT-024 On Issuing an Authoritative Interpretation of W-4.9000 to Affirm Pastoral Discretion in Performing Marriage Ceremonies—From the Presbytery of Heartland.
This overture requests an AI that basically does the same as above, but in different language:
OVT-027 On Issuing an Authoritative Interpretation of W-4.9000 to Affirm Pastoral Discretion in Performing Marriage Ceremonies—From the Presbytery of East Iowa.
This one just wants to remove the entire 1991 AI that currently exists on SSM:OVT-036 On Rescinding the 1991 Authoritative Interpretation Concerning Teaching Elders Performing Marriages for Same-Gender Couples and Sessions Permitting Such Ceremonies in their Facilities—From the Presbytery of New Castle.
The problem with the rationale in this overture is that is says this:
The United States Supreme Court, in United States v. Windsor, ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, which allowed states where same-gender marriage was illegal to discriminate against such persons, was unconstitutional.
The reality is that the ruling held that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT must recognize the validity of SSM performed in states where such marriages are legal, it does not state that other states must recognize those marriages. The key part of the ruling is this:
Justice Kennedy noted that regulation of domestic relations is within states’ traditional authority, and that the sweeping nature of DOMA as applying to all federal laws had the purpose and necessary effect of treating differently a relationship that the state treated the same. This “demeans” the married couple that is treated differently. In concluding, the Court made it clear that “[t]his opinion and its holding are confined to those lawful marriages” under state law.
Will this legal nitpick hold any sway when this overture is debated in committee, I seriously doubt it.
I don't believe I missed any, but then again I may have. This year there will be another concerted effort at electioneering during the GA. Commissioners will be offered swag that will signal a preference towards a certain point of view, those who refuse such things may then be intimidated to go with the flow.
While I believe that any such indicators from any interest group should be banned from the hall, I don't see that happening as some may yell about free speech. I see it as the elimination of any external influences from the prayerful consideration of the work of the GA from any group left or right.
My previous thoughts on this issue are a matter of record, I see this is going to be an issue that keeps coming back again and again until those who are convinced that the traditional definition of marriage is correct either capitulate or have left the denomination.
.... and so it goes!
Update 05/16/2014:
PLEASE NOTE: these thoughts were written way before I knew where I would be serving at GA.
Wednesday, April 2, 2014
Long Time No Blog !!
OK .. I haven't posted in a LONG, LONG time. Why ... good question. Its not as if there hasn't been anything to blog about. There have been many, many things occurring in today's culture that are forcing those who believe in the authority of Scripture into defensive postures.
However, its another General Assembly year, and the number of overtures sent to GA this year has been limited by the requirements to have two Presbyteries concur on the overture. This new requirement may have reduced the workload of a few committees by half.
Then again, there are about 7 or 8 different overtures to change the Book of Order's definition of marriage. If the committee thinks it over correctly, they can combine overtures into one. However, we also have a push to have the GA create an Authoritative Interpretation (AI) to change the definition of marriage If this gains traction it could cause a major uproar in the denomination, and the PC(USA) would see more departures, both by individuals as well as entire congregations.
Why ? Because an AI would bypass the normal way to change the Constitution by eliminating the voting by the presbyteries. This would force the will of a minority, a mere 340 or so commissioners, on the entire denomination of 1.8 million. But, but, but .. the regressives in the denomination would point out that one of the basis of our polity is that the Holy Spirit works in our councils. The problem is, the Westminster Confession (part of that pesky Constitution) also says that councils do ERR!!!
This is why an overture passed by the GA is sent to the presbyteries for approval, so that other councils can pray, think and say YEA or NAY on the overture. It provides a second chance for the Spirit to work to confirm or correct the action of the GA.
Over the next few weeks, I'll be going over the most controversial of this years crop of overtures.
.... and so it goes!
- Can't affirm same-sex marriage? You're a hater, bigot or homophobe * !!
- Don't want to take pictures or bake a cake for a SSM? Be prepared to be brought before a Civil Rights Commission and/or be sued for pain and suffering
- Believe that if Jesus didn't talk about it in the New Testament, its only because He already said His piece in the Old Testament? You're a bibliolater, one having excessive reverence for the letter of the Bible.
- Believe that the PC(USA) Constitution's two parts, the Book of Confessions and Book of Order, are equal in authority, and second only to Scripture? You're wrong, we can change anything with an AI, and we will.
However, its another General Assembly year, and the number of overtures sent to GA this year has been limited by the requirements to have two Presbyteries concur on the overture. This new requirement may have reduced the workload of a few committees by half.
Then again, there are about 7 or 8 different overtures to change the Book of Order's definition of marriage. If the committee thinks it over correctly, they can combine overtures into one. However, we also have a push to have the GA create an Authoritative Interpretation (AI) to change the definition of marriage If this gains traction it could cause a major uproar in the denomination, and the PC(USA) would see more departures, both by individuals as well as entire congregations.
Why ? Because an AI would bypass the normal way to change the Constitution by eliminating the voting by the presbyteries. This would force the will of a minority, a mere 340 or so commissioners, on the entire denomination of 1.8 million. But, but, but .. the regressives in the denomination would point out that one of the basis of our polity is that the Holy Spirit works in our councils. The problem is, the Westminster Confession (part of that pesky Constitution) also says that councils do ERR!!!
This is why an overture passed by the GA is sent to the presbyteries for approval, so that other councils can pray, think and say YEA or NAY on the overture. It provides a second chance for the Spirit to work to confirm or correct the action of the GA.
Over the next few weeks, I'll be going over the most controversial of this years crop of overtures.
Now .... for something completely different.
A few years ago, after a blog post where I copied a friend's Alternate Universe News Report, a comment was left that said:Why do you refer to yourself as a "reformed Catholic"? Why don't you just address yourself as a Presbyterian? As a Catholic, I find apostates like yourself hold on to the term "Catholic" as a means of currying favor with the world. It is always "recovering Catholic" or "lapsed Catholic", never a complete divorce from the Church. Is there any justification for the tag line "reformed Catholic"? Just be a Presbyterian, which is completely irreconcilable to Catholicism.I answered with this
Good question.
Why do I use the term, because, as many of the Reformers were, I was brought up Roman Catholic, and lost the faith.
I returned to Christianity as a whole, the church Catholic, when I started attending a Reformed church, a PC(USA)church.
I have no quarrel with Roman Catholicism, only with the man-made rules that were added after the period of the Church Fathers, starting around 900 AD.
In our basic beliefs, there is nothing that I believe that is different from the Roman Catholic. We both pray and believe in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, as do most of Christianity.
And as far as you calling me apostate, there are two definitions for that term:
Definition of APOSTASY
1: renunciation of a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection
I do not recognize the first definition as applying, as I have not abandoned my faith in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is only one way to the Father, and that is in Christ Jesus.
As far as the second definition, yes, I have abandoned my previous loyalty to the institution of the Roman Catholic Church, I'm not all that loyal to the PC(USA) for that matter.
There is only one loyalty I hold to, and that is my faith in my Savior.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Sola Christus
Soli Deo Gloria
And this is why I call myself the Reformed Catholic.
.... and so it goes!
Thursday, July 11, 2013
Disappointed, but not surprised.
I haven't blogged in a year, some would say that's a good thing. But after the 2012 GA I had decided why bother, the PC(USA) is going to hell in a handbasket, and nothing I say or type or gripe about will change the eventual demise. Evangelical friends are leaving, either by walking from their current congregation, or by moving with the congregation to the EPC or ECO.
As more and move evangelicals leave, the PC(USA) is becoming a mirror of the UCC. Proclamation of the Gospel takes second (or third) place to proclamation of the gospel of political correctness. Presbyteries are more interested in rooting out "schismatics", then in rooting out those Teaching Elders who proudly proclaim that Jesus did not rise from the dead, never ascended, and was basically a good person who had good ideas; kinda like a Jewish Confucius or Buddha.
Then there was the Pittsburgh GA. It wasn't all bad; there weren't any huge puppets at worship. However, there was the ruling that the BOO does not need to agree with the BOC, and the push for authorization of same sex marriage (SSM).
As I watched the live streaming from the Pittsburgh GA last year, I was wondering where most of the YADs (Young Adult Delegates) picked up their version of theology; today I was given a glimpse of one possible source.
A pastor friend received a text from a youth director who had taken a group of kids to one of the PC(USA) camps:
... and so it goes!
As more and move evangelicals leave, the PC(USA) is becoming a mirror of the UCC. Proclamation of the Gospel takes second (or third) place to proclamation of the gospel of political correctness. Presbyteries are more interested in rooting out "schismatics", then in rooting out those Teaching Elders who proudly proclaim that Jesus did not rise from the dead, never ascended, and was basically a good person who had good ideas; kinda like a Jewish Confucius or Buddha.
Then there was the Pittsburgh GA. It wasn't all bad; there weren't any huge puppets at worship. However, there was the ruling that the BOO does not need to agree with the BOC, and the push for authorization of same sex marriage (SSM).
As I watched the live streaming from the Pittsburgh GA last year, I was wondering where most of the YADs (Young Adult Delegates) picked up their version of theology; today I was given a glimpse of one possible source.
A pastor friend received a text from a youth director who had taken a group of kids to one of the PC(USA) camps:
I'm disappointed, but not surprised about this as I keep informed about what is going on in the PC(USA), but will this be a wake up call for any moderates?? Or for those evangelical institutionalists who believe that their staying in the denomination will act as a moderating force? That only works when you have access to actually do some moderation, and I don't see that happening real soon.
... and so it goes!
Saturday, July 28, 2012
Saturday, July 7, 2012
Watching the PC(USA) GA
Like many Presbyterian polity geeks, I'm sitting home watching the PC(USA)'s 220th General Assembly via streaming video.
You may have heard of a few things going on: Israeli Divestment, same sex marriages. I"m not going to review them here, except to say they both lost, and your local paper may not have the full information, nor the expertise to understand what our polity is all about.
No, this blog entry is about the overall BLOAT of the General Assembly docket, as well as the bloat of the number of advisory committees that giveorders advice to the various committees that review the overtures sent in by the presbyteries.
These advisory committees weigh in on almost every overture that comes in, and it makes you wonder what some of them are doing putting out an opinion on an overture that really has no relationship to the area they are supposed to be advising on.
Today, I watched as the discussion of same sex marriage started three hours late. This was due to the battle over divestment the night before. The GA plenary schedule was already 3 or 4 hours behind by the time they started the SSM deliberations. In the middle of all of it, they had to break for dinner.
They came back, and went for another two hours. As I finished watching for the night at around 12 midnight, they were still going over another committee's report. OK, I get it, every GA commissioner has a right to express an opinion, and to propose amendments, but good grief .. please be prepared. Then you have the commissioners who ask for some clarification by calling on the resource person from an advisory committee. Oh great, lets just have the staffers do the testimony, deliberation and decisions then.
Then you have the Young Adult Advisory Delegates ... !! Yes, I realize that its good to have the voices of youth at the GA, but how are these kids selected? Most have no grounding on Scripture (a lot of what I heard is of the well, the Jesus I know' type of response), and hardly any Polity knowledge. These kids are the ones most easily swayed by the personal feeling types of arguments used by many of the liberals.
Even so .. none of this would be an issue, if it weren't for the sheer number of these overtures coming from the Presbyteries. The number of overtures for the Social Justice committee is staggering, then you have the others change in Polity .. Church Orders .. and so on.
Which is why, over the past three or four GAs that I've watched, the last night of the GA always lasts way past midnight so that all the business can get accomplished. And for what .. pronouncements by the PC(USA) to tell Iran to play nice with its neighbors. Oh yeah, I can just imagine the Ayatollah saying to himself Gee, the Presbyterians of the PC(USA) are upset with what we're doing, I'll have to fix that right away." !! Hey guys .. GET A CLUE .. the days when people paid attention to what the PC(USA) said are long gone. In fact, they were way before the PC(USA) was born during the merger.
Looking at the GAs of the EPC, PCA .. even our spiritual cousins, the Church of Scotland, and Free Kirk of Scotland. They don't have these late night sessions, they don't even have staffs 1/4 the size of ours. Yet they get things done, decently and in order. and, in the case of the Church of Scotland, actually get ahead of themselves so they can call a free afternoon in the middle of a GA.
But I guess that's what happens when a denomination gets more worked up about calling on parents to stop spanking their kids, than spreading the life changing Word of God to a nation, a world that is looking for the Truth.
Then again, this GA affirmed that the denomination has many interpretations of Scripture, so no one should prevail. As Pilate said .. What is truth? In the PC(USA) we don't have the ONE any more.
... and so it goes.
You may have heard of a few things going on: Israeli Divestment, same sex marriages. I"m not going to review them here, except to say they both lost, and your local paper may not have the full information, nor the expertise to understand what our polity is all about.
No, this blog entry is about the overall BLOAT of the General Assembly docket, as well as the bloat of the number of advisory committees that give
These advisory committees weigh in on almost every overture that comes in, and it makes you wonder what some of them are doing putting out an opinion on an overture that really has no relationship to the area they are supposed to be advising on.
Today, I watched as the discussion of same sex marriage started three hours late. This was due to the battle over divestment the night before. The GA plenary schedule was already 3 or 4 hours behind by the time they started the SSM deliberations. In the middle of all of it, they had to break for dinner.
They came back, and went for another two hours. As I finished watching for the night at around 12 midnight, they were still going over another committee's report. OK, I get it, every GA commissioner has a right to express an opinion, and to propose amendments, but good grief .. please be prepared. Then you have the commissioners who ask for some clarification by calling on the resource person from an advisory committee. Oh great, lets just have the staffers do the testimony, deliberation and decisions then.
Then you have the Young Adult Advisory Delegates ... !! Yes, I realize that its good to have the voices of youth at the GA, but how are these kids selected? Most have no grounding on Scripture (a lot of what I heard is of the well, the Jesus I know' type of response), and hardly any Polity knowledge. These kids are the ones most easily swayed by the personal feeling types of arguments used by many of the liberals.
Even so .. none of this would be an issue, if it weren't for the sheer number of these overtures coming from the Presbyteries. The number of overtures for the Social Justice committee is staggering, then you have the others change in Polity .. Church Orders .. and so on.
Which is why, over the past three or four GAs that I've watched, the last night of the GA always lasts way past midnight so that all the business can get accomplished. And for what .. pronouncements by the PC(USA) to tell Iran to play nice with its neighbors. Oh yeah, I can just imagine the Ayatollah saying to himself Gee, the Presbyterians of the PC(USA) are upset with what we're doing, I'll have to fix that right away." !! Hey guys .. GET A CLUE .. the days when people paid attention to what the PC(USA) said are long gone. In fact, they were way before the PC(USA) was born during the merger.
Looking at the GAs of the EPC, PCA .. even our spiritual cousins, the Church of Scotland, and Free Kirk of Scotland. They don't have these late night sessions, they don't even have staffs 1/4 the size of ours. Yet they get things done, decently and in order. and, in the case of the Church of Scotland, actually get ahead of themselves so they can call a free afternoon in the middle of a GA.
But I guess that's what happens when a denomination gets more worked up about calling on parents to stop spanking their kids, than spreading the life changing Word of God to a nation, a world that is looking for the Truth.
Then again, this GA affirmed that the denomination has many interpretations of Scripture, so no one should prevail. As Pilate said .. What is truth? In the PC(USA) we don't have the ONE any more.
... and so it goes.
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